Articles/Writing

Subcultures [an investigation of...] (issue 12)

Awhile back i was waiting for a bus in Busarus [central bus station] at Door 16. For anyone who knows it Door 16 at the Store Street entrance is fairly chaotic with loads of buses vying for few parking spaces, while customers frantically look for where exactly their bus is. If you're lucky there'll be one bus conductor to fob you off with "over there", "over there" or "its not here yet". As i was standing waiting among a nervous horde of people, i spotted a couple dressed in a familiar style to me. They wore patches, and billions of badges on their dark clothes; and as i scoped out their styles i noticed they too were checking out my badges, patches and general style. I stepped closer to them and we immediately started a conversation on where they were from, their travels, punk in Dublin, punk in Belfast, their plans, where i was headed etc. We parted ways, i wished them luck, and perhaps that we'd meet again at a gig in the not too distant future. I love such moments, while perhaps superficial they are great – when one feels part of some kind of subculture, like recognising the style of a flyer for a gig in a foreign place or the recurrence of an unstated theme in fanzine writing. At the same time though whats the difference between two strangers having an in-depth conversation about 'the match, are they part of their own subculture? If we are all individuals that think independently isn't it funny that we do have similar styles, and tastes. Maybe this is all irrelevant because when it comes down to it i dress the way i want to and like the stuff i like and if other people are into the same stuff thats great and if i can say 'Good style!' to something i like thats great too! Maybe i am vain and superficial but mostly all this stuff kinda fascinates me.
For me though i think one of the most important things about being involved in a subculture or scene is the community buzz of havin' friends and people there when you need them and to help you get through lonely times in the city when you feel like an ant or a statistic or something. That theres movement is important, that bands and fanzines (etc.) get better and progress – not always stuck on that 1st issue or playing the same 3 chords (unless its somehow inventively or fresh), just to keep it interesting and us all motivated. Yeh and all that stuff about tryin' to create an alternative blah blah aswell...
Hmm, so this is kind of an investigation into all this stuff of style, subcultures, identity, punk, DIY, life etc. First is some notes on Subculture theory, then an interpretation on the conventions of the DIY Gig, and then 3 interviews with people who i thought would have an interesting perspective on this. In a way this is also an attempt to redefine this stuff from the academics and theorists who more often than not theorise something into oblivion....

graphic from Hebdige book
Subculture Theory: An Intro

Subculture: the way of life, customs of a particular group of people within society, which are different from the rest of that society [www.freesearch.co.uk/dictionary/subculture]
One of the primary study of subcultures that i have found, is the 1979 book by Dick Hebdige 'Subculture: The Meaning of Style'. In it he looks at many subcultures such as Teddy Boys, Mods, Rockers, Skinheads and Punks. As Punk was still quite fresh at that time and as he says himself: "No subculture has sought with more grim determination than the punks to detach itself from the taken-for-granted landscape of normalized forms, nor to bring down upon itself such vehement disaproval"; Hebdige gives much examination to Punk. The book is a good read and although it is heavy with academic jargon i would say its a good place to be introduced to academic jargon! Some of the basic points made on subcultures are:
# members of subcultures use style as a code of 'otherness', deviance
# 'humble objects' (eg. in early punk: safety pins, multiple zips, ripped t-shirts, cut-ups, etc.) can be appropriated, stolen by subordinate groups, and to carry secret meanings – which express in code, a form of resistance to the societal order.
# it is the way commodities are used in subculture which mark the subculture off from more orthodox cultural formations
# [the subculture] can represent a major dimension in people's lives – an axis erected in the face of the family around which a secret and immaculate identity can be made to cohere – or it can be a slight distraction, a bit of light relief from monotonous but none the less paramount realities of school, home and work.
# individual subcultures can be more or less 'conservative' or 'progressive' integrated into the community, continuous with the values of that community; or extrapolated from it, defining themselves against the parent culture. These differences are reflected in the objects of subcultural style & in the signifying practices which represent those objects and make them meaningful.
# subcultures are not cultural in the sense of 'high art' but rather manifest culture in a broader sense, as systems of communication, forms of expression and representation.
# the subcultural style is re-adopted from 'outrageous spectacle' back into the fold of society by tow methods:
# the commodity form: the conversion of subcultural signs (dress, music, etc.) into mass-produced objects. "Once removed from their private contexts by the small entrepreneurs and big fashion interests who produce them on a mass scale, they become codified, made comprehensible, rendered at once public property and profitable merchandise".
# the ideological form: the 'labelling' and re-definition of deviant behaviour by dominant groups – the police, the media, the judiciary. "The 'Other' can be trivialized, naturalized, domesticated; or can be transformed into meaningless exotica, a 'pure object, spectacle, a clown".
# subcultures are expressive forms but what they express is a fundamental tension between those in power and those condemned to subordinate positions and second-class lives.
[Hebdige, Dick; Subculture: The Meaning of Style; 1979; Methuen & Co, London]

D.I.Y. gigs

The DIY ethic of the punk/ hardcore scene is a self empowering revolutionary notion of everyday life. This notion can be seen reflected in the codes of behaviour and expression at the gig – the principal ritual of this scene. The DIY scene is not divided into creators and consumers, performers and audience.
The band playing often performs on the floor a nose away from those watching, sometimes a band member will interact physically with the crowd or take part in good humoured banter, instead of being on a pedestal or high up on stage.
Rather than consumers gaping in awe, the crowd are or have the potential to be band members themselves, fanzine writers, gig promoters, run distributions [distros], be bicycle mechanics, etc.
In the punk/ hardcore scene there are different
conventions of style and fashion than in the average pub or club. High street fashion and branded clothes are rarely seen at gigs instead an alternative, cut and paste, punk-type style – hairstyles, sewn on patches, jewellery made of recycled objects, band t-shirts, badges etc. Often t-shirts and patches worn have some political/ cultural reference.
Gigs regularly have distro stalls and information tables – these provide alternative information sources, independent distribution networks (for cds, records, t-shirts, badges, patches, fanzines etc.) – an alternative economy as such independent from the usual networks of multinational owned music and culture industries.
DIY gigs are usually cheap in, an affordable price making them as accessible to as many people as possible, rather than for profit motives.
Alcohol is always a feature at gigs – due to them being in pubs and as this is Ireland... Essentially what brings this community or subculture together is the music but the codes and conventions of its operation are important in setting it apart from the average club or pub scene.

from GZ flyer

Interview 1: Willie & Natalia [Red Ink Zines & Radical Books, zine-writers, band members, etc.]
Is there such a thing/ style that marks a person as part of the punk subculture?
N & W: Yes
Studs, spikes, patches, badges etc.? is it so superficial?
W: I don't think so. I think its good when people make themselves sorta-recognisable to other people that might be more inclined to talk to them. like "well, that persons on my buzz", well you hope so. I don't think its just fashion, it's a flag.

Is it merely a case of adopting a different uniform to fit in with peers or does it reflect a conscious change in individual?
N: I was reading a book in the Bad Books library yesterday, there was a quote by an Israeli activist who said sometimes its nice to dress a certain way to feel like you belong to a tribe, to be recognised by other members of the tribe. You go somewhere, you see somebody wearing patches/ a squatter badge or something. It's not just superficial, it's a way to show the world, other people, that you believe in something that you're part of something, part of a larger movement. You're not just wearing a buttoned up-shirt with kaki pants, going with the herd...
W: its economics aswell. The way I dress is me saying I dress this way because I won't spend money on clothes, but I like to still wear clothes that might be durable enough for me to climb trees and ride my bike.

Do punks write about politics/ go to demos because it is fashionable within 'scene' or because of ideas beliefs they have learnt/ felt?
W: I think it's half and half. Alot of people go along because their mates are going along, usually 'cos its fun. but definitely alot of the front liners are there for their beliefs.
N: I think protesting and demos/ actions are really hip at the moment. For some people it is, for alot of students it's the next bandwagon to jump on. It's just like when they try to market punk clothing towards youth, yeh loads of people start wearing studded belts but then when they stop there's still the people who'll always wear studded belts. Just because that's what they are. In a few years there'll maybe be less people protesting, because it won't be as hip anymore.
W: I think alot of the time, demonstrations are a sort of activist-punk rock day out, a field trip. Its good 'cos you also get to meet alot of people – people that you work with, or just know from around, or someone you didn't think was that way inclined. I think that everyone who is there knows why they're there.

Is the notion of a 'punk' style (fanzine layouts, clothes, music) self-restricting?
N: With fanzines, records sometimes you can look at the record, fanzine and by the cover tell its a strictly straight edge hardcore band, or strictly crust fanzine. Maybe people do layout some things like that so it is recognisable but I'm all about diversifying it.
W: There was definitely a breakthrough in punk rock when Punk Planet started making a magazine they made it ok for punk rock to look good; I remember back in the day – "oh yeh its punk it looks crap its cheap". Nowadays, things can look good and be punk rock. These days there's definitely a standard, and its alot more diverse. Punk Planet can interview Nick Cave one month, interview Los
Crudos the next ?they're good, they look diverse like an indie magazine but totally punk rock, totally punk. But there definitely is loads of different styles.

Does it help to create a fuller culture?
W: it does but it also creates divide at the same time. Where as in the 70s there were punks and skins now there's so many different genres of punk, its a little ridiculous.
N: Sometimes people just stick to people who look like their punk subculture. I don't like that part of it.
W: it makes people feel unaccepted in certain groups. I don't know if I could hang out with a bunch of train-hopping crusty punks as I don't look that way or I don't do it. Even though everyone still has the same ideals 'just got a different style.

Is it part of the idea that there are no boundaries between performers, artist etc., no rock stars because we are all?
W: They're shouldn't be boundaries, and when there is its time to go 'Ah here'. I was blown away when I saw No Means No play for 2 hours, then they took their own equipment apart and carried it offstage into the van, no roadies or anything that was really intense, how cool can you get.
N: Rockstars don't create themselves, they're created by their audience. People have to realise that you shouldn't idealise anyone – everyone can do whatever it is they wanna do...
W: Alot of the time people don't see themselves as rock stars but the people who like their music do. It's the band through the audience's eyes, not the band.
N: People tend to idealise writers, zine-writers, musicians, people who are somehow active. People who are more active are seen as better in a way – no-one is better than anyone, people shouldn't think that way.

Does the buying and selling of the uniform (patches, badges, band t-shirts etc.) commodify the empowerment ideals?
N: We're all about encouraging people to make their own stuff, but it's really hard, not everyone can make a patch, zine, record; not everyone should have to do all these things. I don't think there's a problem with if I can do one thing really good, and you can make something else really good; I should do my thing, or couple of things – I don't wanna make patches for myself, cos I'd be really bad at them.
W: I definitely would be into wearing someone else's patch because I don't make patches personally.
N: sometimes I think the term Do-It-Yourself would be alot better to say Do-It-Together or something. I don't think people should have to do it themselves all the time – it seems like such a lonely idea. I don't think selling all this stuff commodifies it. Like me & Willie have been talking about getting in these courier bags but at the same time we don't want to get in too many 'cos we don't want to sell 2 of the same courier bags to different people because it feels like your robbing people of their individuality.... it does commodify it I guess, but punk has always been a commodity.
W: Once you're in a position of buying and selling of course it is.
N: Counter-culture has always been in a position as a commodity – there's always been a style to go along with your counterculture. You make your style or buy stuff to make your style. It's always a commodity I guess.
W: These days you can get things for so cheap...

What about treating 'straight' people and 'punk' people differently?
? is this a natural system of familiarity and communication with our own?
? or does it make us seem clique-ish and make outsiders feel alienated and intimidated?
N: I think alot of people alienate people, alot of times people do treat people differently if they didn't and treated everyone the same as they treat their mates, they'd realise people aren't as different as they always think. However, for instance with Ladyfest [festival organised by women celebrating women's diversity] there's alot of really different people in it, and sometimes you're sitting at a meeting talking about something and using terms that you forget not everyone knows, sometimes its easier if you just have to relate to people in your same (sorta) group – as they already know all the terms, know your mentality, know where you're coming from, so you already have a certain level with them – you don't have to start by explaining the terms you're using, or where you're coming from. So yeh, in that way sometimes I definitely interact with people in punk circles differently because I don't have to start by saying what this means is this, this is where I'm coming from etc. You shouldn't assume though, that people if they look straight or normal won't understand your view or whatever....
W: Everybody has a background. Definitely the downfall of creating the bigger community, is the elitist community & the snobbishness. I think people get so excited about making a community and being surrounded by like-minded people that they start forgetting about the 'normal' side of society.
N: Its really boring just interacting with punks, its really nice sometimes to interact with, especially, older people who come from a totally different background, because if you only interact with your own circle there's no place for new ideas to come from – its only from outside influences that new ideas, new thoughts, real movement can come. Not saying you should go and make friends who aren't punks, of course your close friends are the people you interact with (your same tribe or whatever), but you need to learn from others and see what they're about.
W: You need to teach others aswell, you might have travelled & read x amount of books – that's great, but the knowledge you've gained through daily things yourself and your integrities in life should be spread to other people. If it keeps on going around the same circles, it won't grow, its good to encourage other people from what you know.
N: Punk could turn into saying to people: this is what I believe in, this is right, this is what you should do. [But] it doesn't work for everyone, its not gonna work for everyone globally or even in the same city – its more important to think of people as people you can learn from, and think of every experience and interaction as something you can learn from, rather than there's something you have to teach them. It's from learning from each other that we teach each other.

Do punks in keeping with the 'style' spend money to big businesses or is small local business used with preference?
N: it's kinda hard, because you have to start with, what do you mean by punk. You've got people who get all their clothes for free or spend almost zero on their clothes, who would be punk, you couldn't really say for them. For instance, me – I buy almost everything 2nd hand or get it for free, I spend very little money on clothes – sometimes things I get 2nd hand come from big companies. But then you have punks – who are total fashion punks, who'll buy leather jackets, leather boots... Its one of my goals; and I haven't achieved it yet; to only buy things from small companies and not from big companies – because when your buying your stuff from big corporations – you look like everyone else, you're letting them sell you your image.... its kind of a privilege to only buy ethically right clothes though, its the privilege of living where those companies exist and being able to afford to make that choice...

Interview 2: Amy Kilcoole [van driver, zine writer etc.], Nooly and Ruth join in midway.
What influences the way you dress, your style?
A: I really don't know, I think its pirates and ability to steal so lotsa' pockets. I started out as a hippy then the punkism kinda took over 'cos it made more sense – their ideals and stuff. I suppose you dress – you see things on other people that you like...

Is there such a thing/ stylistic feature that marks a person as part of the punk subculture?
A: Definitely: the fucken' Dublin piece, hairstyles, euro-crust – alot of people follow the euro-crust trends I find within the Dublin scene anyway, crusty disgusting patches and rips... to me is what punkism is about.

Is it so superficial/ easily defined?
A: Superficial in the sense that punk started out as a fashion thing so it would be a fashion thing. But
punks themselves know its all about fashion and image like Cormy ['Bite The Hand That Feeds...' zine] says it himself and most of his patches are superficial but they're there because he likes it.

fag butts by Thomas

Is it merely a case of adopting a different style to fit in w/ peers or does it reflect a conscious change in individual?
A: perhaps to fit in with peers its easier to go around but also to provoke attitudes from other people – if you're walking down the street and you're abit smelly, and patched up-looking, people treat you differently.
R: do you not think it depends on the person aswell?
A: I don't know I've been touring since May and travelling does make you smelly and dirty; and the attitudes of many many people – I'm a pretty mannerly person I would find, & they've been pretty disgusting to me. I was walking down Cambridge town and I was smelly and all patched up, a few rips in my clothes, a few stains, a few probably profane (to some people) patches – I asked directions to the town centre and before I could even get past 'excuse me', the guy had thrown up his hands, like – "I have no money, I have no money, get away from me". I was like, I was just asking where the town centre was – very hurtful.
R: I meant that an individual might wear the style because they feel comfortable in it – the whole idea that you image, identity shouldn't define who you are...
A: It does play a big part because image is so big.

Do punks write about politics/ go to demos because it is fashionable within 'scene' or because of ideas/ beliefs they feel/ have learnt?
A: Completely because it's fashionable, nothing else... no.
N: My mum asked why I was going on the Mayday march I suppose I was slightly belligerent as I couldn't even give her an answer. When I think about it, it was mostly because the suppression of your right to protest I wasn't all that into the issues about Europe and all that, but I was pissed off about not being allowed to protest now that there was so many cops on the streets – there was big intimidation of anyone who'd like to come out and say they
didn't agree with you. Some lad, when I was coming down to Reclaim The Streets, pulled up beside me when I was stopped at traffic lights and said: "so what are yees off protesting about?" I was like "I dunno, stuff" – that about sums up my ability to support, express...
A: maybe you can't put your finger on it... punks or activists are that bit more aware of what's shit with the world. 'Back in the day, when you're younger ignorance is bliss then when you know about the world you wanna fight about it. Maybe its out of their peers & what they've heard from their friends but its made them more aware of the world so that's why they're protesting against it.

Is the notion of a punk style (fanzine layouts, clothes, music) self restricting?
A: as in the patched up cut 'n' paste image.
N: and if you live in a squat & you're around everyone all patched up for 24 hours a day I suppose you're...
A: or if you excuse yourself if you look neat and proper.
N: if you look like that and you're around normal people for say 20 hours a day
A: which we are mostly. Self-restricting if you let it be.
N: Only the person can be self-restricting, if someone is self-restricting they're gonna use style to restrict themselves and if they're not they're gonna use it to be cool.

Does the buying/ selling of the uniform (patches, badges, band t-shirts etc.) commodify the empowerment ideals? i.e. DIY, make your style etc.
N: I don't think so. Look at Shorty, Amy – none of us are wearing patches, lucky we don't have Cormy and Eric here. I think people should sell decent patches – so it doesn't rub off within 2 weeks and then disappear when you wash them for the first time. Maybe punks aren't meant to wash their patches. The patch I got at K-Town had worn off by the time I got back to Ireland then I washed it and it completely disappeared.
A: I think maybe we should get away from the buying and selling of it, trade would be better – like with zines trading is good. Or seeing other people's artwork 'cos making your own patches is fuckin' deadly but wearing them I don't know. It's nice to wear other people's art.
N: I think people should start making their own clothes. I think it's all about trying to make yourself look like an individual and alot of times people can get it wrong. Maybe because they're not in the loop...

What about treating 'straight' people and 'punk' people differently?
# is this a natural system of familiarity and communication with our own?
# or does it make us seem clique-ish and make outsiders feel alienated and intimidated?
N: I don't think I threat people differently.
A: Some people do. I try not to, but when you're treated differently by them you set up a front.
N: But what about those girls over there, I went over & asked them for a cigarette and they were smoking a spliff and they gave me the spliff. It was great, so I stood over there with some shiny trendy girls smoking a spliff, it was cool.

Do punks in keeping with the style spend money to big business or are small local businesses given preference?
A: In ideals, in a perfect world they try and give it to local; more the activist punks, it depends what punk is...
N: A cool right-on punk will not, a so-called punk will buy their records off Sony & snort their coke from whoever & buy their Tommy Hilfiger
A: It depends on the punks, it seems the activist punks will try and live good lives – the more active punks instead of the paraphernalia punks – not that paraphernalia is all bad.
N: plastic punks....

from a Holy Virility flyer

Interview 3: Niall Hope [father and local legend, etc.]
What influences the way you dress, your style?
N: I'm not sure, what my influences would be. I wouldn't want to wear leather, or to wear animals 'cos I don't think I need to. That only influences ethically, not a specific look. If I was buying something I'd be thinking ethically but sometimes people buy me clothes – they don't buy ethically – like a pair of jeans – they're not too worried how they're made or whatever – so I just wear them I don't say to me' Ma no thanks. I wouldn't have looked on it as a style, clothes serve a function.

Is there such a thing/ stylistic feature that marks a person as part of the punk subculture?
N: I don't think there's one thing in particular, I suppose the punk subculture is something that's different from what would be perceived as everyday life, generally speaking if you go to a punk gig – the people aren't wearing the same clothes as others in everyday life. I'd love to say No, I'd like to think they're shouldn't be. I don't think there should be but I think they're probably is, and I think that's unfortunate. I think the stylistic feature that stands out in the punk subculture – people wear a different type of clothes to what's considered the mainstream and they specifically try to avoid clothes that would be considered the mainstream.

Is it so superficial/ easily defined?
N: I think any stylistic feature is abit superficial. 'Cos if your wearing something because its a stylistic feature, that stylistic feature will change so therefore you'll change your look – the same way as if you paint the walls on your house cream, because cream is the current fashion. That'll go out of fashion and you'll want to change the colour of your walls or whatever. I think it is superficial and it does change. If you go back to the mid 80s – the people at the gig would have a slightly different look to the people at gigs now – more boots, more leathers, more jeans maybe less combats, runners... Nowadays people are thinking abit more ethically aswell...

Is it merely a case of adopting a different style to fit in w/ peers or does it reflect a conscious change in individual?
N: I don't think it really reflects a conscious change I think people just slip into it, I think they do, if they're hanging out with their mates – not even, if they come across a new group or new activity and all the people involved in this new activity look a certain way people will just kinda drift into it. I think the people who specifically go to dress a certain way straight away will be gone in a few months, to the next thing they think looks good.

Do punks write about politics/ go to demos because it is fashionable within 'scene' or because of ideas/ beliefs they feel/ have learnt?
N: Again I think you drift into it. Those that write about it because it's fashionable stop writing about it a year later because they've moved onto their next thing. It's like people who turn vegan because they think they should be without thinking why they should be, or even vegetarian – you discover punk rock and go – right I'm giving up meat – but you don't really think why you're giving up meat. I think yes some punks do go to demos because its fashionable but because of the whole thing in punk rock they do (some of them) do get to pay attention to the causes and feel empathy with what the demo is for. But you could start off goin' on a demo without realising what you're goin' to, but those who just do it for that reason, 'cos its just a trend will be gone from the trend in 6 months.

Is the notion of a punk style (fanzine layouts, clothes, music) self restricting?
N: The notion of a punk style definitely is self-restricting. There shouldn't be a notion – the notion of a style for somebody who thinks a certain way or listens to a certain type of music that is supposed to be anti-establishment, not even anti-establishment – to me punk is about questioning things – whatever you find the answers to be, you find the answers to be; but once you question it, that's what punk is to me. I don't think you should have a certain style to question things.

Does the buying/ selling of the uniform (patches, badges, band t-shirts etc.) commodify the
empowerment ideals? i.e. DIY, make your style etc.
N: Yes and no, it does commodify it but only if you're selling the look, to solely make money out of the look, then its being commodified. Some people would sell their patches or whatever but not be out to make alot of money – maybe they want to make their living but if it doesn't take over their life, is that
commodifying it? Like bringing your magazine around shops, is that commodifying it? Like say Cultivate or Red Ink, they're selling the magazines and selling other stuff but they're trying to push an idea and in the meantime hopefully making their living from it. To me it only commodifies it if they think that what they'll sell will make money – so if they stop taking stuff, if they think "this isn't going to sell" then it'll start commodifying it. Certain places would be like that like Barnes & Noble, or those big chain stores, books like No Logo, the Michael Moore stuff would be the in thing – but as soon as that stops selling they'll stop stocking it, stop featuring it in the front window, so it is commodified. As a purchaser, a buyer, you can't buy empowerment you can only feel empowerment. I think if you buy things – like wearing patches, you're going around and 'might make a statement, whether you've bought the patch or made it yourself or whether you're goin' on your bike that has a sticker – there is a certain level of empowerment in that 'cos you're goin' around saying to everybody, the whole world that's looking at you, this is how I think. I would say no that buying doesn't commodify it, but it depends on the individuals, like certain individuals will have moved on to whatever the next fashion is.

What about treating 'straight' people and 'punk' people differently?
? is this a natural system of familiarity and communication with our own?
? or does it make us seem clique-ish and make outsiders feel alienated and intimidated?
N: 'totally makes us seem clique-ish, I can say that from experience. There was an Anti-Gap protest on Grafton St. meeting at the front of Trinity one day, and I went along with Ellen [daughter] but the people on the protest didn't register the fact that I was there. It was a loose collection of people meeting at the front gate of Trinity and they were gonna' walk up there. They met there & went around all the people they thought would be goin' on the protest, then went and didn't come over to Ellen & me because we didn't look like we were goin' on a protest. And I just went I'm not gonna hang out with you people. There'd be certain times at gigs where I'd kinda feel abit out of the loop, or out of the crowd – so I think it does, you do feel alienated and that's wrong aswell.

Do punks in keeping with the style spend money to big business or are small local businesses given preference?
N: The punks that give to the big business would be the six-monthers, the ones who are doing it because of the look will be moved onto a different look. Not all of them, 'cos some will move out of big business. But big business doesn't have a place in punk rock. But then most people's introduction to punk rock is through big business. I don't know how you can create one against the other. Most people are introduced to punk rock from Green Day or NOFX and see what else is going on; or originally the Clash and the Sex Pistols and see what's going on. Big business is the evil but then again big business plays a part in everyone's life its only when you discover the kinda subculture that's there – you discover the alternative.

[PS. I haven't come up with a conclusion, which is probably for the best; but special thanks to everyone who took part in the interviews or had conversations/ thoughts with me about it all.]

Ghost Mice lyrics